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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 11 post(s) |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
36
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Posted - 2013.03.28 13:34:00 -
[1] - Quote
They are still bad ships for the metagame. They make battleships useless on most scenarios.
They need to loose 1 turret, unless you intend to boost battleships so that they can become more attractive .
Battleships larger HP pool do not pay off . They are far less mobile, lock much slower, are less agile, less top speed for same amount of firepower.
Most of the combat usages of battleships can be replaced by the attack BC. So the BC need a significative firepower nerf or the Battleships will need a significative boost of some sort. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
41
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Posted - 2013.03.28 13:49:00 -
[2] - Quote
Another thing that could be done. Role penalty to ALL of them: weapons resolution 150% |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
42
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Posted - 2013.03.28 14:24:00 -
[3] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Gypsio III wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Also why do the talos and nado have so much more mass than the naga and oracle? To get the desired speeds and align times. And why is it desirable that the ships used by small gangs get more mass than the mass nagas fielded by everyone? Why do you think that mass in itself is a meaningful statistic? Try looking at speeds and align times.
Do you realize that the most overpowered rig in eve history was the POlycarbon that used to do what? REDUCE mass!!
MAss affects exponentially the gain of speed under MWD . |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
43
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Posted - 2013.03.28 15:58:00 -
[4] - Quote
Suyer wrote:Cool. No reason to fly BC's anymore.
I too like flying un-agile garbage ships because I too like to get scrammed and then piled on by lamer pubbies who can't even consider flying without support.
Frigs it is.
What? You realize that he BARELY changed their agility? Talk of over reaction.
What we need is a WAY WAY more severe nerf. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
44
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Posted - 2013.03.28 16:48:00 -
[5] - Quote
Oddsodz wrote:Make sure that base scan resolution is low enough that my Arazu is not instalpopped before I lock a tier3 battlecruisers as it jumps in from a gate.
I Am sad as it is that the fire power of tier3 battlecruisers makes the job of a recon pointless (pun intended) when camping gates and so on. Before any sensor boosters are used. A tier3 battlecruisers can lock and fire before any recon ship. And in Lowsec. You can't use frigs for tackling on gates (well you can use an enyo if you can afford the silly fit with legon boosts) due to gate guns and so on. So you would use a cruiser or a recon for that job. But since the tier3 battlecruisers came along. There is no need for that role/job any more. tier3 battlecruisers can lock and pop any target before it even has a chance to warp (fittings depending). My job as an Arazu pilot was not needed any more.
Anyway. Rant over
As i said several times. Attack BC are bad for the metagame. They were knee jerk reaction to make players happy back at the incarna fiasco results.
Now we are paying the price of ships made to be extra awesome, instead of being good to the metagame. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
44
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Posted - 2013.03.28 17:56:00 -
[6] - Quote
0wl wrote:Gah, still no Cruise Naga ... Disapointing.
Peopel really come here with this kind of expectation? Wtf people? get a grasp of reality. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
44
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Posted - 2013.03.28 18:56:00 -
[7] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Hmmm, a few thoughts: - The TE nerf is going to brutalize damage projection on the Talos and Tornado. I don't think that the Talos will remain workable, but the Oracle should remain ok on that front. The Tornado was never my favorite, but it'll probably remain workable if I'm in the mood for it. - The Talos's mobility nerf is pretty brutal, but it wasn't going to be viable after the TE nerf anyway. - The Tornado's mobility nerf is also pretty brutal but it had enough that it'll probably make it out alive on the strength of the dual web slot layout. At the very worst you can still use it for Arty gate camping. - The Naga wasn't useful at all because it's mobility was ******* terrible. The Oracle now has it's ******* terrible mobility, which will probably kill the Oracle for me.
I guess I probably won't fly Tier 3s anymore, but there's enough other options that I'll be fine.
-Liang Jesus christ man you act like the TE nerf is cutting the total range of the Talos by 33%, Its not Its losing 4km of fall off, and 1km of optimal, its not crippling the ship in anyway at all, it can still fight in exactly the same ranges it fought in before. EDIT: Pre Nerf Talos - 16+29 Post Nerf Talos - 15+25 Stop the presses and scrap the ship its totally fuc...oh wait. Damn thats still totally functional isn't it, oh well. Carry on crying about the sky falling. EDIT: And if you think slowing it by 50 m/s and making it align 0.4 seconds slower is brutal then theres probably no hope for you.
Liang is not on his best day. Usually he is quite able to grasp the reality (although stubornly). So much that I believe that he is trolling |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
44
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Posted - 2013.03.28 19:27:00 -
[8] - Quote
Blood Valentino wrote:Personally, and i can speak for many others, I do not fly any of the other BC's Tier 3 only, their indtroduction made all others irrelevant, and that is the cause for most of peoples complaints, no matter how shallow it was. It eliminated the need to bring a battleship, because you can do 1000 dps in a talos, why bring a Mega Etc.
Fundamentally it was a cool idea to have these ships in the game, but in the end it made things very cheesy. I havent flown a hurricane in about a year, because after the introduction of the tornado it made the hurricane completely irrelevant and also due to the fact it was nerfed so hard it basically has no use left in the game.
I digress...T3 bc's are cool, and they made most other BC choices irrelevant.
Correct. Tier 3 BC nullified an iconic class, the battleships for MOST of the possible scenarios. That means they are unhealthy for the metagame. In fact they have MORE firepower than some battleships.
I still want to see what REALISTIC scenarios you are justified into bringing a tempest instead of a tornado. Must be a scenario where the tempest is superior enough to justify at least part of its price gap, and must not be a scenario where a there are other ships specifically made to do it and able to outshine the tempest completely . |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
56
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Posted - 2013.04.02 10:35:00 -
[9] - Quote
Pinky Feldman wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:So, but the thing about it is that a 1400mm Nado and a Muninn have nowhere near the same tracking.
-Liang 1400 Tornado with tracking ammo tracks better than a Muninn with Tremor, which is what I said the inital post that you quoted. I'm not saying anywhere that the 1400 Tornado can do the same things a Muninn can, nor am I saying they provide the same role in your fleet. They're two very different ships. I'm talking about how cruisers get dumpstered by ABCs in almost every way. Short range cruisers die to close range and long range ABCs. This makes sense. Long range cruisers die to long range ABCs. This makes sense as well. Long range cruisers engaging at any range but their max using non-t2 ammo don't even stand a chance against close range ABCs, because with the exception of a couple combinations, they're terrible. Long range cruisers engaging at max range using T2 range ammo can do ok against close range ABCs, but if you're engaging at that range a long range ABC would probably be more effective.
Effectively you need to divide the tracking value by the weapon signature if you want to compare them. Munin stil ltracks like 3 times better effectively. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
57
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Posted - 2013.04.03 13:18:00 -
[10] - Quote
Johnson Oramara wrote:Gorn Arming wrote:Add another vote to the "Grath is correct" pile.
The Talos obviates all other BCs in a small gang. I guess the Drake is still useful for large fleets, and the Prophecy is okay for baiting. I can't think of a reason to bring a Hurricane or a Harbinger or any similar ship on any kind of small gang engagement, though, other than getting tired of the Talos.
Hell, the Talos even dominates PvE in Deklein. That may change here as it's right on the edge of being able to solo F-hubs due to speed/sig tanking (in fact I rather suspect that nerfing Talos ratting is one of the reasons behind these changes). Yes, it's actually quite ridiculous that i can run L4 missions faster in Talos than battleships which they are made for... i'm really looking forward to some major fixes in battleships if CCP sees nothing more wrong in tier3 bc's than this.
wowowowh stop there. Battleships are not made to run missions. Only marauders are! Do not dessacrate the holy battleships with this heresy! |
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
58
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Posted - 2013.04.04 12:00:00 -
[11] - Quote
monkfish2345 wrote:Have to say i'm still not massively convinced that the changes proposed will really bring these ships into balance.
personally (and i think a fair few people have said similar) is that the major sticking point with ABC's is the alpha damage they apply.
a talos or tornado being able to apply huge DPS isn't really a problem, my point being that it should require some amount of time to apply it's damage rather than being able to hit 10k alpha in the case of the nado.
My understanding was that for some time CCP had been wanting to extend the duration of combat, rather than having it over in seconds. Currently these ships not only go directly against that they tend to lead to engagements ending instantly allowing no room for any viable counter to be utilized.
obviously as with anything insta popping will be obtainable with scale, but I don't think we should really be encouraging a situation where a single ship can insta-pop pretty much any of it's potential predators (taking the assumption an ABC will simply run away from a BS that might have the range to combat it).
Alpha strike is the whole point of arties because they are inferior on all other aspects (pure range, tracking and DPS). That was an intentional change to increase alpha strike because the advantage that arties were supposed to have was too small a few years ago. That was specially relevant when battleships were used a lot in fleet combat. That time APOCs and railboats ruled completely the field.
The problem appeared when the STUPIDLY CONCEIVED TIER 3 BC were introduced.
What can be easily done is reduce tornado fitting capabilities. Large alpha strikes should be reserved to tempests and maelstroms. Tornados should be running with AC not Arties.
Back when ccp were trying to extend combat duration things got even worse, there was almost no chance for some inferior force to cause damage on a larger force and bug out. Thanks god that they stopped trying to make all ships take 20 minutes to kill another ship. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
59
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Posted - 2013.04.04 14:44:00 -
[12] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Just because I posted one shield fit doesn't mean thats the only viable way to fly the ship. It was just the best way to achieve the numbers sited above me. Personally, I think active tank brutix is extremely fun and have flown armor and shield variations both quite a bit.
I'm happy to say that currently active armor bonuses are not as valuable as they maybe ought to be. We intend to keep looking at tank balance, and in the mean time we don't want to throw out all the bonuses and just give up on active armor ever having a place in the game.
I still think you guys must make the bonused ships apply the bonus over the overheat bonus as well. That would give them a short term PVP level repair capability. Example. If a ship has 37.5% repair bonus, this bonus should apply to the base ammount repaired and over the 20% (if my memory serves me right) bonus gained on the overheat |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
59
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Posted - 2013.04.04 14:50:00 -
[13] - Quote
The weakness of self repair bonus also comes from the fact that the whole metagame changed a lot and very small fights are rare nowadays.
7 years ago dual repairer megatrons rules low sec.... hunting their solo prays or even .... 2 ENEMIES!!!!!!!
Todays you are lucky if you can get a fight with less than 3 on each side and most fights are in half a dozen people (for small fights) |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
59
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Posted - 2013.04.04 15:05:00 -
[14] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:I always thought that repairing armor should be like this:
Activating an armor repairer makes it pulse the same way a cloak does. Armor gets a passive linear recharge just like shield has a natural recharge, and it is equal to the amount repped pr second by equivalent current rep (small, medium large). Capacitor is drained as if you had a negative value on how long it takes to recharge the capacitor.
Implement this and I will love you forever
Would very likely be way way more burned at the server since to keep persistency coherence the database wold have to be updated much more than currenlty is. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
61
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Posted - 2013.04.05 10:19:00 -
[15] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Maximus Andendare wrote:...But in the mean time you're asking us to throw away one of the bonuses,... *cough* Amarr laser cap bonus *cough* We have a lot of stuff in more urgent need of attention, eWar, null sov, large missiles, drone interface are infinitely more important than making 2-3 hulls work "as intended" if you ask me (which you didn't or wouldn't but there it is . Not as if the Gallente is completely crippled as the bonus is not present on all/most hulls or there is a lack of mids to make shield work. Until armour is sorted, you just have to either use the shield option or limit yourself to engaging 2-3 enemies instead of 5+ at once. On topic: Is the plan to let the tier3's be the de facto Large Gun snipers? If so then I can't wait to see what roles you have planned for BS
Amarr laser cap bonus is not thrown away. Compare the damage of lasers unbonused with any other weapon of same class unbonused. Lasers are far more powerful. That means their damage bonus is embedded and the amarr cap bohnus is so that the weapons become usable only on amarr ships.
Just compare the DPS of Rails and Tachyons , alsot their trackign if you do not beleive me. Both on unbonused ships of course. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
61
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Posted - 2013.04.05 11:31:00 -
[16] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Just compare the DPS of Rails and Tachyons , alsot their trackign if you do not beleive me. Both on unbonused ships of course... I did, and? Tachs have a whopping 15% dps advantage over 425mm Rails on unbonused hull (used a Mael), for that you have to burn three times the cap (1.5x after cap bonus) and use 50% more grid. What you said was true, but most of the weapon systems have caught up with them in both damage and partially range so that lasers are now left as a fittings intensive and cap hungry weapon system with scorch being the only redeeming feature. I am of Amarr, have flown the golden hulls exclusively (albeit some with Blaster/AC fits ) for 6+ years so believe it or not, I am fully aware of the way the wind has been blowing. Granted, lasers are still get their revision now that missiles (Torp/Cruise changes coming) are the last of remaining three to get sorted although rails still could still do with a little somethingsomething. Until that revision we'll carry on living our lives leaning on the crutch called Scorch to make it through the days. But perhaps you right, maybe lasers really are god weapons (as they rightly should be .. AMARR!) and the ships using them is just filtered out of the various killboards and replaced with ac/blaster boats to keep it a secret
I am not saying anything about balance directly.. just that the cap usage bonus is not a wasted bonus.. its just a creative way to hide the true damage bonus of the weapon.
To remove amarr cap bonus you wold need to reduce laser cap usage.. and that woudl jus tmake all weapons almost equal... BORING.
You fix that by increasing the base damage advantage of the lasers. Or just make beams easier to fit.. check how much damage a 7 tachyon geddon can dish with 3 damage mods :P |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
62
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Posted - 2013.04.05 13:41:00 -
[17] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:In fact, lasers are plain better than projectile weapons (even at close range, even quad light beam are better than 220mm AC). And laser are better than all other weapons at around 5 or 6 km IIRC (for small & medium weapons at least). They have quite a big superiority range in fact, the only problem being the ability to use this superiority range.
And most of the time, what amarr ships lack in dps, they get it in tank.
In the end, I think a TD would serve the amarr way better than a web, because that would give them the tracking superiority they lack in duel. .... I don't even know how to respond to that..
maybe because mathematically he IS right
Put Mega Pulses and 800mm AC on a 2 rocks and fire at each other and guess wich one will win? |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
62
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Posted - 2013.04.05 15:27:00 -
[18] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:maybe because mathematically he IS right
Put Mega Pulses and 800mm AC on a 2 rocks and fire at each other and guess wich one will win? That before or after you allow for all the stuff that is possible due to fittings/cap disparity, that is twin large neuts and more tank than reasonable on the AC fit? He is right about the TD remark though, but then again everyone can and do benefit from those so not sure why it is even in there .. perhaps a nod towards the people wanting an extra mid on some laser hulls.
When I stated the rokh was implicid 8 turrets of course. We want to compare the weapons not other modules. His statement was strictly about the weapons and usign to a conclusion that the issue on lasers are the platforms. Your argument only corroborates with his statement.
Anyway the no cap Usage is hardly a huge advantage as some post. Because when you have no cap your minmatar ships loose its mobility that is much more important for them then for amarr. Its an advantage, but its not like some pople try to make it sound "minmatar do not need cap " . When I flew more battleships I used to have less worries on capacitor while in an APOC than in a tempest. The ammount of cpacitor the amarr ships have extra is usually enough to cover all weapon firing usage on a short fight, and on long fights, they have larger cargo bays (with less ammo space usage) to carry more boost charges). So there are times where the no cap usage on guns will be relevant, but do not try to make it soudn like its an extremely common thing.
I am even having a hard time to remember last time I was unable to fire because of capacitor being empty and that I was not already doomed anyway even if I had capless weapons. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
62
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Posted - 2013.04.05 16:35:00 -
[19] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:In fact, lasers are plain better than projectile weapons (even at close range, even quad light beam are better than 220mm AC). And laser are better than all other weapons at around 5 or 6 km IIRC (for small & medium weapons at least). They have quite a big superiority range in fact, the only problem being the ability to use this superiority range.
And most of the time, what amarr ships lack in dps, they get it in tank.
In the end, I think a TD would serve the amarr way better than a web, because that would give them the tracking superiority they lack in duel. .... I don't even know how to respond to that.. maybe because mathematically he IS right Put Mega Pulses and 800mm AC on a 2 rocks and fire at each other and guess wich one will win? Yes and conflag/void/hail are the best ammo types for ALL situation because they get the BEZT DPZ! Looking at EFT numbers is pointless if you don't understand them. EDIT: also large (pulse, beams are still terrible on everything other than nightmares) lasers are good because battleships have half a billion slots/fittings to fit stuff to compensate for their weakness. Medium and small? not so much
Not based on EFT, based on my experience fighting with both ammar , minmatar battleships.
Amarr battleships ARE superior.. the problem is.. currently Battleships have not much use... |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
212
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Posted - 2013.04.29 23:46:00 -
[20] - Quote
These things simply have more firepower than battleships and more. wya more mobility. Tank is hardly as relevant , specailly when they have RANGE and flaloff bonuses. They can avoid almost all damage,
These thigns need ALL to loose 1 turret at LEAST!!!! They could very well loose 2 turrets adn still be overpowered. |
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
212
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Posted - 2013.04.29 23:46:00 -
[21] - Quote
UVPhoenix2 wrote:Akturous wrote:So when are you actually nerfing tier 3 bc's? You know, since more than BS damage with cruiser speed and extreme damage projection are balanced... The tier 3's are working as intended. They don't need another nerf. The other ship classes need a buff and that's the direction CCP's been heading in.
Show me where then.. because up to knwo the strogner battleships ahve been NERFED in upcomming patch. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
299
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Posted - 2013.05.19 13:09:00 -
[22] - Quote
Akturous wrote:And weapon systems. They obsolete:
Nano pest Arty Pest Arty Mach (to some extent) Arty Cane Sniper Hacs Medium Rails Medium Arty Medium Beams All other BC's in a shield BC gang Eagle Ferox Active Tanking
Deletion from the game is the only way of balancing these things, they've just screwed everything.
Naa just removing 1 turret from them would already help a LOT and bring them to be just a bit more powerfult han the combat ones. |
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